ladybattousai wrote:
[quote
There is a difference between an original character and a mary-sue character and one does not equal the other. In fact, every original character and even the canon characters are a little bit of the author expressing themselves. Through your own experiences and philosophies on life, you bring these people to life.

.....

Your rant is justified, but I think that you've been abused by people who throw the word Mary-Sue around unjustifiably, because they either don't understand what the term really means or they're a bunch of jerks. Don't let them get you down and keep perfecting your OC in its own imperfect way :)[/quote]

BEAUTIFULLY SAID

Crimson_Angel92 wrote:
i am still trying to understand why everyone absolutly hates MS, yeah when they are too perfect and are too beautiful, and everything just goes right (or wrong) for them and they have no depth then yeah it is boring to read .

i read Lord of the ring fanfiction and there is pretty much only two girls, and they are already taken, so you are forced to put in your own character to have a romance story. and everyone bags on those stories, and are really harsh,

i feel sorry that people apologies if they have a MS, it is their story, it should be written how they want it to be written and shouldn't appologies for it.

and i am not with out my fears that my OC Kira is an MS, she is based off of me with only a few differences, her looks, she can sing and she is a tad more outspoken. (only because i know where everything is going...most of the time, and i can predict everyone's reaction) but luckily no one has mentioned it she was an MS or not.

sorry for the rant i just had to get it out

There is a difference between an original character and a mary-sue character and one does not equal the other. In fact, every original character and even the canon characters are a little bit of the author expressing themselves. Through your own experiences and philosophies on life, you bring these people to life.

The term Mary-Sue is thrown around a bit to mean every OC which is not true and even if you base one of your characters off of yourself, like I said before, it's not necessarily a Mary-Sue. What truly makes a Mary-Sue a Mary-Sue is the desirability of the character by others in the story. Is she so beautiful and wise that everyone pines for her when she walks into a room? Such shallowness makes them uninteresting, but I view it the same as when a villain is created who has no good motive for causing grief for the characters. In fact, I dislike that more.

Your rant is justified, but I think that you've been abused by people who throw the word Mary-Sue around unjustifiably, because they either don't understand what the term really means or they're a bunch of jerks. Don't let them get you down and keep perfecting your OC in its own imperfect way

i am still trying to understand why everyone absolutly hates MS, yeah when they are too perfect and are too beautiful, and everything just goes right (or wrong) for them and they have no depth then yeah it is boring to read .

i read Lord of the ring fanfiction and there is pretty much only two girls, and they are already taken, so you are forced to put in your own character to have a romance story. and everyone bags on those stories, and are really harsh,

i feel sorry that people apologies if they have a MS, it is their story, it should be written how they want it to be written and shouldn't appologies for it.

and i am not with out my fears that my OC Kira is an MS, she is based off of me with only a few differences, her looks, she can sing and she is a tad more outspoken. (only because i know where everything is going...most of the time, and i can predict everyone's reaction) but luckily no one has mentioned it she was an MS or not.

sorry for the rant i just had to get it out

Ha, this reminds me of the times I attempted to make the perfect char. I used to do this with my friends and they used to tell me to tone it down a bit. Lol I was trying to make her unperfect with good qualities and it didn't work much because there was an ability or two that I put in there. Well now naturally her name is Sakura and yes she is my penname. But other than that haha this inspired me to reply to this thread.

I saved this journal that our teacher made us keep in second grade. We would write in it and then our teacher would write back...I told her that i thought her hand was too big to make a hand turkey and that she should get smaller hands...I was kind of a jerk as a second grader apparently lol.

I had an old notebook with a sailor moon story that I wrote when I was in high school to amuse my friends. This was before any of us saw any of the later seasons...I recently came across it when moving in with my boyfriend. I read it and was surprised that it really wasn't bad. Some of the ideas were really original as it veered completely away from the original storyline and enemies. I had made up my own along with this huge back-story about how the universe was created. I have been thinking about working on it again.

You should never throw out old notebooks. Mine are 16 years old, and it is great to have that glimpse into how I was before. Don't let them rule your room, but don't pitch them either. They might be hidden treasures that you forgot you had.

ToWriteLoveOnAPage wrote:
Rikayu wrote:
angelic memories wrote:
Hey that idea sounds good. It is well thought out. You should make it into a story.

Well... I'm still thinking about it... since it IS a sesskag story, though the sesskag-ness is only in partial focus.

I have the rough rough rough rough draft of this entire story in two-three notebooks all the way from when I was 13-14. I'm now turning 19 in August. o.o its all beat and falling apart, but its still complete.

The story just needs to be given a HEAVY overhauling.

Lol, old notebooks are like monsters that you just can't kill. They're gruesome and beat up and terrifying to look at, but you just can bring yourself to throw 'em away lol.

And then of course, you wake up one day and they've taken over your room. I think it might be a conspiracy.

So true. It's so beat up, but I just can't bring myself to throw it away.

I've actually recently read through the old thing, and I feel that I should continue (or rather fix) the story in it. Then, I think, I'll post it up here to that you guys can see it,

Rikayu wrote:
angelic memories wrote:
Hey that idea sounds good. It is well thought out. You should make it into a story.

Well... I'm still thinking about it... since it IS a sesskag story, though the sesskag-ness is only in partial focus.

I have the rough rough rough rough draft of this entire story in two-three notebooks all the way from when I was 13-14. I'm now turning 19 in August. o.o its all beat and falling apart, but its still complete.

The story just needs to be given a HEAVY overhauling.

Lol, old notebooks are like monsters that you just can't kill. They're gruesome and beat up and terrifying to look at, but you just can bring yourself to throw 'em away lol.

And then of course, you wake up one day and they've taken over your room. I think it might be a conspiracy.

angelic memories wrote:
Hey that idea sounds good. It is well thought out. You should make it into a story.

Well... I'm still thinking about it... since it IS a sesskag story, though the sesskag-ness is only in partial focus.

I have the rough rough rough rough draft of this entire story in two-three notebooks all the way from when I was 13-14. I'm now turning 19 in August. o.o its all beat and falling apart, but its still complete.

The story just needs to be given a HEAVY overhauling.

ToWriteLoveOnAPage wrote:
Haha, Sesshoumaru having a sister, that would be hilarious! I feel like she would make him play feudal barbies with her, and when she was older, he would totally have to deal with her PMS lol.

Yes. I remember naming her Yuri... which was supposed to be my first user name on A.S.S, but played around with the letters and it added a few and it ended up as Rikayu.

It's such a complicated and rather nonsensical story that I thought up behind her. She a few years before the affair between Inupapa and Izayoi, leaving Sesshoumaru looking for her (she's a toddler then).

The screwy part is that Yuri end up in the future. She lives with her grandfather who was the one who took her away from the feudal era and all that. Blah blah blah, she goes the the Higurashi shrine cause her grandfather isa friend of Kagome's grandfather. (Yuri goes to a separate school, so she and kagome don't know each other) Kagome senses there's something weird about the girl.

Yuri wanders around and stumbles upon the Bone-eater's well, Kagome finds her, Yuri gets scared and steps back and fall into the well, then Kagome's like... "OMG she's GONE!"

So she goes through the well and finds Yuri standing in front of the Goshinboku tree and just staring at it.

Blah blah blah, Kagome explains to her the whole Shikon story and Yuri wants to help since her grandfather owns a dojo. And so she follows the gang, and the whole time Inuyasha just doesn't like her. (Her hair is black but she has pale golden eyes that he finds very creepy)

When they're at a hot spring, Kagome and Sango ask about a necklace that Yuri wears around her neck. It's a white crescent moon and she explains that her grandfather said that it's from her brother who died when she was still a baby. She goes about to explain that he died in a accident with her mother and father. The only one she can really remember is her brother, and that he has the same eyes as her.

Then, there's a fight with typical demon with a shard, but during the fight, a bird demon thing grabs onto Kagome and Yuri tries to grab her, but the demon lifts both of them. Yuri tries banging her fist against the demon's feet and then when she pushes her hand against it, it screams in pain and drops them into a river.

She and Kagome are okay, but are terribly lost. It's gettomg dark so they find a small cave and decide to stay the night there and continue looking in the morning. When they wake up, a little girl is watching them. And... as cliche as it is... the little girl is Rin.

Blah blah blah, Rin brings them with her, jaken's complaining and Yuri kicks it and says that Jaken's annoying. Sesshoumaru comes, and Yuri can't help but stare at him.

There's alot more... but If I wrote it all.... it would be too long for this forum

Anyway, Inuyasha comes and goes "sesshoumaru what did you do to them?"!!" blah blah blah, they leave without a fight and as Kagome's pulling Yuri with her, Yuri takes a glance back to look as Sesshoumaru.

Hey that idea sounds good. It is well thought out. You should make it into a story.

Haha, Sesshoumaru having a sister, that would be hilarious! I feel like she would make him play feudal barbies with her, and when she was older, he would totally have to deal with her PMS lol.

I've always had this one idea in my head for the longest time about sesshoumaru having a younger sister. I even drew pictures when I was younger and made a completer story line T^T

But its just something that I keep to myself cause I'm too embarrassed to post it up. the descriptions are intentionally bad ahahahaha.

Haha! That was brilliant! 'nuff said.

I think whomever wrote this was a little overly harsh on things. I have read stories with Mary-Sues, and I definately pass stories by when I see that there is some kind of American cousin, best friend, or the like falling down the well too. It just doesn't appeal to me. I really stay away from that.

I guess that people should write what they want. If you want to write a story with an obvious Mary-Sue, more power to you. Just don't expect everyone to like it. After all, you should be writing for yourself, right?

Well I've read everyone's opinion on Mary Sues and there was one that said really all characters are Mary-Sues (because we can't make the perfect character...that's like saying we're perfect ourselves) but the person said that are varying degrees of Mary-Sues.....just make sure your OC's aren't too outlandish and seemingly too perfect. So if you're one of those people who takes the time when creating an OC for a story don't freak out and try to make your OC the perfect character ever created because that's how the radical Mary Sues are made...just take a deep breath, calm down, and really think about what you learned in school about characterization or better yet....ASK YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY FOR HELP! I asked Angelic Memories for help with two of the characters I'm going to introduce in my story and she helped me a great deal. You should also make a list of your characters traits and a detailed bio and really pay attention if your character displays the makings of a Mary-Sue and if they do or they are borderline then tweak it before posting your story to avoid getting flammed for it later.

I think the Mary-Sue would be a character that comes in and tries to take over the story, so that Kagome or Sesshy or the other canon characters take second place... Or at least that's when they become REALLY annoying to me...

This kind of makes me worry about a few of my stories... *frets between ideas for current stories* ... I normally aim for realistic things, but as the stories' have progressed I might have used sight. Hm... I might have to think on them for a bit to see if I am falling into the grasp of a Mary-Sue.

I think one of the major issues with Mary-Sue's is that they don't take into account HOW they became incredibly pretty, smart, etc. When writing a story the authors just say - I want this type of character - without looking at what shaped them. Say you want a really smart character, well barring the very very few geniuses in the world the character probably had some sort of drive to make them study so hard. This would probably introduce a flaw like say, an inferiority complex. Without this background though the character is flat and boring to read about. Personally I think that there should be much more to a story than only the stuff that makes it to print.

Your welcome....It really opened my eyes it anything else and it was nothing short of educational for me too.

This was really interesting. It must be why, when I see a summary that reads "Kagome's cousin from the United States falls through the well..." I pass it by and find something else to read! When I got to the end, where it lists Kagome as a Mary Sue, it kind of verified what I had feared. She is really pretty, nice, and everyone loves her, but at least her mom was nice to her when she was growing up, and Kikyo hates her, and Inuyasha isn't the most devoted of boyfriends... Thanks for posting this! It was educational.

Here is a helpful manual by Emona-DragonDancer on deviant art who posted a help manual on how to make your OC not so...Mary-Sueish
http://emona-dragondancer.deviantart.com/art/The-Mary-Sue-Manual-23804747

The Mary Sue Manual



PART I: What Is A Mary Sue Anyway?

A Mary Sue is typically very common among anime fandom. They’re found in typical literature, too, but we’ll stay focused on Anime and other fandom rather than Mary Sues that actually exist in real books.

Anyway, typical Mary Sue factors include:
1. Beauty
The character in question is generally much prettier than already existing canon characters

2. Smarts
Example: An IQ of 250 and in High School

3. A “Big Picture” Point Of View
The character can solve little problems in a snap by looking at everything as a whole

4. Highly liked/loved by every character in the series
Everyone wants to be the character’s friend

5. Tragic Past
Speaks for itself. This isn’t entirely a mary sue factor, but it’s been overused to the point of cliché which makes it annoying to read. It's only here because it usually comes with the package

6. Unnatural Powers
This one actually depends on the series in question. If we’re talking about like…Beyblade, if the character has supernatural powers like control over an element, they are considered Mary Sue right on the spot because it's so far out of bounds

7. Relation to a canon character
This is also a very common cliche that comes with the package. Many OCs tend to be a canon's long lost sibling

8. Has No Enemies
This isn’t even humanly possible. Enough said

9. PERFECTION
...yeah.


All of the above are common factors of your typical Mary Sue.
I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WANT TO MAKE YOUR CHARACTER LOOK GOOD.
But YOU have to understand that PERFECTION IS A HUGE FLAW IN ITSELF There are better ways to make your character appeal to others than to make her the perfect specimen of fandom while saving yourself many a flame about your character being a Mary Sue. Now…how 'bout we go into depth with each of these factors.

Beauty
This one is basically very self explanatory. Your character is prettier than the pre-existing, original characters of the series. Wanting to make your character pretty is perfectly fine – and doing so is also acceptable. But when it goes to the point that all the other girls of the series get jealous of your character, that’s when it gets to be a problem.

Smarts
Hahaha. Big one here. Self explanatory, cliché, and no one wants to read about someone who has the IQ of 200-something while they’re in high school. It’s lame, cliché, and probably isn’t worth reading. People who are extremely smart for their age aren’t as interesting to read about as you probably think.

A “Big Picture” Point Of View
This one probably needs a bit more explaining. Looking at everything as a whole to figure small problems in a second. If your character is ALWAYS able to see the bigger picture, they won't be able to get caught up on the smaller things, like every human does. They won't be heartbroken when someone they thought was their "true love" leaves them because their "big picture" view of the world convinces them that someone else is out there. Or something.

Highly Loved/Liked
This is BY FAR the most common factor of a Mary Sue. This is when EVERY boy in the series falls for the character and when EVERY girl wants to be like her. This is the type of character that’s actually PAINFUL to read about. There's no depth to this sort of character, because frankly having enemies helps shape their personality.

Tragic Past
This is self explanatory, so I'll just list typical examples:
1. Mother is a prostitute
2. The character wasn’t wanted by her parents
3. The character was involved in some sort of experiment that resulted in either a screwed up life, or had the DNA of an animal
4. The character was physically abused

Now, you’re probably thinking “Why isn’t there like…the character was abandoned?”, We’ll have you know that there’s a VERY FINE LINE between cliché and Mary-sue-ness. Emona’ll go into that later.

Unnatural Powers
As it’s been mentioned before, this depends on the series in question. More examples of dos and don’ts for the Unnatural Powers thing.

1. Yu Yu Hakusho – Pretty much acceptable, as long as the character isn't the new Toguro or something.
2. Beyblade – Believe it or not, I wouldn't suggest it.
3. InuYasha – Typically since almost everyone else in the series is supernatural, yes.
4. FullMetal Alchemist – As long as it's not the new homonculi or something, I typically consider it fine.
5. Slayers/Next/Try – You can have as many abnormal powers there without getting in trouble as long as your character isn’t stronger than Lina or something.
6. Spiral – I wouldn't try it. For obvious reasons.
7. Gundam SEED/Destiny – abnormal powers don’t mix with mecha, I gotta say.

Relation to Canon Characters
No one can come close to telling you how over used this one is. While it isn’t entirely Mary-Sueish, it's incredibly cliche and most people don't like to read it. Especially if it’s like… *insert canon char’s name here*’s long lost sister or something.
Being related to a canon character doesn’t make your OC a Mary-Sue, but it is over used to the point that’s it’s cliché enough that it annoys most of the people who read about them.

Has No Enemies
Not possible. Simple as that.

Perfection
Ahh…the perfect character. Oddly enough, also the most replusive of the Mary Sue family. Perfect Mary is typically a perfect combo of all of the above – funny how that works out, huh? Being the most sickening of all Mary Sues, What separates this one from the others is the perfection involved with the entire design and would-be development. These are the characters that have no depth whatsoever. They are beautiful, smart, skilled, graceful, and all that stuff that hardly anyone likes to read about. And because she’s just special like that and no one else can compare. So special, that all the men around her can’t help but fall in love with her.


PART II: The Fine Line Between Cliché and Mary-Sue
Has ANYONE ELSE noticed how often these two get mixed up with one another? WELL, now I shall clear up the issue. Or at least try.

Mary Sue Factors:
1. Beauty
2. Impressive Intelligence
3. Supernatural Powers that are out of bounds for the series
4. No Enemies


Regular Cliché-ness:
1. Tragic Past (Overused to the point of being a Mary Sue ; the more tragic the worse we dive into being such)
2. Relation to a Canon Character (Also pretty damn overused)
3. Has a dramatic entrance and amazes the crowd

While Cliché is indeed, very annoying, there still is a line between that and a Mary Sue. While a Mary sue is an original character who is all around perfect and tends to steal the plotline by pushing the canon characters into the background, Cliché is just something that happens over and over and over that you get sick of very quickly. Not much of a difference, but it’s there.

Mary Sue and Cliché are VERY close together and tend to get mixed up. Number 3 on the Cliché list can be considered either Mary Sue OR Cliché. It depends exactly on how she appears and stuff.

It’s my personal opinion that having a tragic past and being related to a canon character is on the border between the two. Having a tragic past , to me, is INCREDIBLY cliché, but not quite a Mary-Sue factor all in itself. It’s the result of the tragic past that makes the character a Mary-Sue. The more tragic it is, the deeper it goes into a Mary-Sue.

Being related to a canon character is just incredibly overused to the point that it’s Mary-Sueish. Nothing more to say there.



Part III: How To Avoid Mary-Sue

The “All-About-Me” Mary Sue
Summary: The character pushes the actual story and pre-existing characters into the background. This usually comes from the fact that the main bad guy is after her and then she goes emo and on her guard all the time so every part of the story involves her somehow. That isn’t fandom, people.
How to Avoid Her: Plot is the most important part of any piece of literature (except for PWPs). Without a good plot, a story is not attention catching - despite of what characters are in it.

The Perfectionist Mary Sue
Summary: She’s perfect. She’s pretty. She’s smart. She’s graceful. She’s skilled. She’s famous. Enough said.

How to Avoid Her: Keep in mind this one little thing – You’re only human. No matter how pretty you may want your character to be, or how related to a canon character, they are not perfect. Add flaws. Flaws add depth to a character, which is a good thing, believe me. It makes them seem more realistic, and if they're realistic your readers are more likely to be able to relate to them, and thus possibly become more interested.
You aren’t the only one who wants to have a character that is 100% original. You’ll usually find a similar character out there somewhere. At this point in fandom, most characters lose originality right after you name them.

The Pity-Party Mary Sue
This goes especially for you people who think that making the character act like they don’t need people in their lives is a flaw. In the end that is also a huge cliché/Mary Sue border. The pity-party Mary-sue is the very common one that usually leads an extremely painful life. No friends, the parents hate her, and no one is interested in her. Kinda surprising that this is also a Mary-sue to some of you people, ne?

How to Avoid Her:
A fairly common thing that associates this type of Mary Sue is something like abuse and even rape. Those two things don’t make any points in a plotline nor do they make substantial points in character development. This is especially so when they don’t show any signs of caring about what happened. Try considering what kind of impact that would make on the people who have actually been abused and/or raped before you decide to give your character some sort of tragic past.

Part IV : Overall Techniques To Appealing, non-Mary Sue Characters
All I can really say to this one is that try to avoid most (not all) of the above. EVERY CHARACTER is a Mary Sue to some degree and there’s no denying it. But to stay lower on the Mary Sue Scale, here’s some advice:
1. Give your character FLAWS. Emphasis on the plural form. No. Not the type of cliché where the character believes they don’t need people in their lives. Flaws like…clumsiness, some sort of phobia, unluckiness, and balance it out with good characteristics like kindness, fair grades, and a half decent life.
2. Give your character enemies. Not necessarily an arch foe but give them someone they dislike who ACTUALLY DISLIKES THEM BACK.
3. Give them weak points in subjects to avoid the impressively smart thing.
4. Avoid love at first sight. For clear reasons I'd hope.

Part V: Examples Of Mary Sues
1. Tohru Honda (Fruits Basket) -She has no enemies except for that Yuki Fanclub, but she is either completely oblivious or doesn't dislike them back. Every boy in the series loves her one way or another, yadda yadda yadda.
2. Lacus Clyne (Gundam SEED/Destiny) – Too lady-like even for being raised well, she’s both a coordinator and a pop star (so to speak). Her only enemy? Fllay. But does Lacus dislike Fllay? No I don't think so.
3. Kagome Higurashi (Inuyasha) – Sorry to all of your hardcore Inuyasha fans and Kagome fans. But if you take a good look at her character, Kagome is the Mary-Sue of IY. She has three after her. Inuyasha, Hojo, and Kouga. But at the very least, compared to Tohru, Kagome isn’t that bad since she DOES have a flaw here and there.
4. Shizuka Jonouchi(YuGiOh) – Also known as Serenity in the dub. In any case, I actually kind of like her. A good example of how a (borderline in this case) Mary Sue can also be a likeable character….to some. Shizuka…is like Tohru except for she was practically blind for the first two (?) seasons.

Now, all of the above are actually fairly well known AND liked. There’s nothing wrong with liking a Mary Sue character – it’s the character itself that tends to be repulsive, not the person who made the character nor the people who like it.

For All Of You Mary-Sue Bashers
All I have to say to you is…TONE IT DOWN. Pointing out the Mary Sue and providing tips to improve the character? That's fine. That's very nice of you.
However, something like this:

OMFG! YOUR OC IS SUCH A MARY SUE SHE’S PAINFUL TO READ ABOUT. SHE’S SUCH A BITCH AND I BET NO ONE LIKE HER. You suck if you made a character that’s a mary-sue without knowing what one even is. REWRITE THIS GODDAMN STORY

Or crap like that. That isn’t called for. At all.Have you ever considered that it was the author’s first story or character? You people have no right to flame. Because the usual reason someone flames someone, is that they’re jealous. Now how would that make you appear to other people, if you're flaming a Mary Sue?